Recently an interview with the editor of the Mystical Site was published in the local newspaper.  It was part of a larger discussion about the state of affairs of modern day religion and spirituality. The discussion was meant as a survey on new developments and new trains of thought concerning religion. The interview provoked much adversary comment, but it was also met with considerable assent from a number of readers. The interview is here presented.

Thanks for joining our discussion. I want to start this interview with a personal question. You just told me you are not a member of a religious community. But you are known for writing and giving lectures about mysticism and religion. Would you consider yourself to be a religious person?

Yes, definitely. But being religious in the modern day world means something totally different than it used to. Being religious in the modern sense means being connected with your own inner self to the Source of life. It is a state of being at peace with your surroundings, with your inner world, with the totality of life. It has nothing to do with going to church or mosque or performing certain rituals, beneficial as these things in some cases may be for our spiritual growth. In my view modern religion is the individual's mystical search for the meaning of him/herself in the world we live in.

Isn't this a rather limited definition of religion? It's like you were talking about psychology instead of religion.

Well, in a sense I am. Isn't religion always about psychology, for the simple fact that religious feelings and religious knowledge can only be experienced in the psyche of the individual? We are talking here about internal emotional and cognitive states. These states can only be adequately described in psychological terms. As a psychologist of the religious experience I am interested in questions like: what happens to the psyche when we have a religious experience? what are the psychological dynamics that provoke religious feelings? can we also describe the religious experience in neuro-psychological terms, in terms of altered chemical states or waves in the brain? Perhaps we must not even shun the ultimate question: is religion not merely something psychological? Are not all religious concepts like Ultimate Reality, God, Pure Consciousness, Nirvana etc. a posteriori rationalizations of internal psychological states?

Do not get me wrong: I do not thinks so. But as a scientist I must admit that it is a point of view that can easily be defended in a discussion. It is very difficult to prove the other view is to be preferred, that religion is also about a or The reality outside of the individual's psyche. And with religion I do not mean the history of religion, which surely is 'something out there' that can be studied in non-psychological terms. I use religion in the mystical sense of yoga, the established connexion between the soul and its Source of Being.

Let's avoid the linguistic trap that we start using terms that are not defined properly and in the course of the discussion assume that we know what we are talking about. So what do you mean by 'soul' and what do you mean by 'Source of Being'?

Where does this conscious principle of living inside of the body come from? How is it possible that we always have this sensation of 'I am'? It is a wonderful thing, isn't it? Religious investigators, who have made a diligent study of the soul, have declared that the soul, this principle of living, is something which we share. Your soul and my soul overlap. Beyond the ego there is an 'I' more 'we' than our separate 'I' and 'you'. If we truly want to communicate, if we want to feel close to one another and connected, in short if we want to feel love and friendship in our dealings with one another, then we shall have to communicate with each other on 'soul level'.

In vernacular speech we find traces of this meaning of soul: things are 'soulful' if they directly speak to our shared feelings. A 'soul brother' or 'soul sister' is someone we do not feel separate of. 'Music of the soul' is not only music that gives us a warm feeling inside, but music that also gives us this feeling of connectedness. I could go on and on, but if you look it up in a dictionary you will find that one of the basic meanings of 'soul' is 'sharedness'.

How so? Religious investigators have also tried to answer this question. They have stated that our soul, this feeling of 'I am' in the body, is on closer scrutiny nothing else and nothing less than the very principle that is the cause of life. For these investigators have noticed that during meditation there comes a moment that our consciousness becomes completely still, to such an extent that there only remains Consciousness as such. Full stop. Point Zero. No me. No you. No body. No world. No process of thinking or being aware of something. Only witnessing awareness without a subject or an object. They have termed this state 'Pure Consciousness' to distinguish it from 'relative consciousness'. For in this state even the feeling of 'I am' is lost in emptiness.

In history they have used a term with which you are more familiar: God. But I do not like to use this term because of all the worn out images connected with it. But if you feel comfortable with it, be free to use it. As long as you try to define what you mean by it. I'd rather prefer the term Pure Consciousness, because it more agrees with my own experience.

Deep down in the interiority of their psyche, by way of longtime meditation, the mystical investigators grew acquainted with this Pure Consciousness. They discovered that it was the Source of their Being, the Source of their soul. They saw that from the ocean of timeless, pure and empty Consciousness the little spark of their soul had risen, just like a thought bubbles up from the deep ocean of their relative consciousness. Every form comes up from this vast field of emptiness lying behind and beyond the manifest world.

But then an astonishing discovery was made. Without a doubt the greatest discovery ever done by mankind. The credit for this discovery must be given to the religious investigators of India. For they discovered for the first time in history our true identity. For they found out that it is wrong to conclude that Pure Consciousness is in our psyche. No, they said, it is the other way round! It is more in accordance with truth if we say that our psyche is in Pure Consciousness.

Ehhh? What did they mean by this statement?

Try to see Pure Consciousness as a very dynamic and intelligent field, full of possibilities, something very creative and inventive. This field is everywhere. And when I say everywhere, I simply mean everywhere. There is no place where this field is not. It is not only within this manifest world, but it is also transcendent to this world: it is behind it; it is its Source of Being.  In more familiar religious images: God (Pure Consciousness) has poured Himself out into this world and has become the Son (relative consciousness, the soul of everything manifest).

There is no separateness between all the things you see and this field, between the soul of everything and God. For if this would be the case we would not be alive. Cut out the root of a tree and it dies. Life is not feasible without the Source as its substratum. If we would not be God we would lie lifeless beside the road. And even if we would lie lifeless beside the road we would be God. For there is nothing outside God, you see? Even dead things are in the field of Pure Consciousness.

Ok. So you seem to suggest that our soul and our Source of Being, as you have defined them, are ultimately identical. We are in true identity the Source. But let's return to our present discussion. What has all of this to do with modern day religion?

Have you noticed that all along we spoke in psychological terms? We talked about 'the soul', about 'consciousness', about 'looking inside' etc. Well, this has become the language of our modern day religion. We do not speak in mythological terms anymore about religion. The notion of a personified and separate God, who interferes from a far off place with the dealings of mankind, has become obsolete. God in our modern day world has become very personal and psychological. It is a concept that is being used in treatment and therapy. The political and social dimensions of religion diminish with the day, at least here in the West.

In my view this is an on going process. Here in the Netherlands it seems that all sorts of New Age types of spirituality, especially reiki, have replaced Christianity as the leading religion of the country. It has been estimated that more women -women are always the leading edge as religion is concerned-  prefer to practice reiki or yoga to going to church. Some way or another the old rituals of the church do not appeal anymore to the modern day public. If Christianity wants to survive it shall have to adapt. It shall have to become more personal. We already see glimpses of this change coming about. More and more the churches incorporate mystical and personal elements in their sermons. Healing prayer has become very popular lately, but is also met with scepsis and distrust from the church authorities, who fear a relaps into magic.

It doesn't concern you, that more and more churches have to close their doors? What about the communal and moral aspects of religion? A lot of people are concerned about a breakdown in civil morality if religion becomes too personal, when the communal aspect of religion becomes more and more neglected.

Everything not real will die in the end. Only the really Real will remain. All the old, worn out mythological religions have to die. A new personal and transformative religion will come to surface in the end. We are right now in a phase of transition. Such a phase always has its crises. But I have strong confidence in the workings of evolution. We'll have a better religion in the end, whether it be something totally different, like eg. a spreading of a New Age type of buddhism in the West, or a remolding of the old forms of Christianity in more esoteric shapes. There are already many developments pointing in that direction. Esoteric readings of the gospel of Jesus attract a wide audience nowadays. And what is the most promising: cross references to other religions of different cultures are more and more made, to underscore the universal validity of the message of the Christ. All these new developments make me feel very optimistic about the future of religion.

What the world is in need of today is personal religion. The old religions have worked for centuries now, but they have failed in bringing about a new type of human being. Despite of Christianity, Buddhism, Islam and Hinduism the world is still a sorry place to live in. We humans are still filled with hate and distrust against one another. We have made a total mess of the environment. The 20th century was a living hell on earth for millions of people. We cannot stick to the old ways. There has to develop something new. Simply because the old has failed.

So the idea of religion being something communal is one of the misunderstandings people have about religion?

Well, in a sense, yes. Last week I attended the Eucharist, because our choir was invited to sing the mass in service. We were waiting in the choir to attend the priest. He was very busy in preparing the wine and the bread for service. It took a lot of preparation to put all things in order. Suddenly I saw a slight irritation and aggression in his hands. It was clearly visible that the priest was unconsciously irritated about the fuss with the wine and bread. I was astonished because aggression and irritation are not the proper emotions in which to conduct the Eucharist. But then I got it: the body of the priest knew that the whole ceremony was a sham, before the priest himself knew it. All this routine fussing about with mere objects in space had nothing to do with redemption and enlightenment. Because the whole you can totally be blocked out in the performance.

But when we talk in therapy, when we discuss the personal advancements the individual makes in spiritual progress, then the you can't be blocked out in indifference. Can there ever be routine and aloofness with you when we talk about you? Impossible. You love your self too much for it to be bored or to remain indifferent and aloof. And rightly so, because love for the Self with a capital is the true reason you love your self.

But love for the Self with a capital is religion! All other forms of religion are basically a misunderstanding. Believing we will get redemption and gain enlightenment just by drinking some wine or chanting some prayers, when we are not willing to let transformation of the self into the Self happen, is a grave spiritual error and can work a lot of damage. It is the easy way out. Attending service is in most cases a too passive a method of transformation. Just like the mind goes on automatic pilot and consciousness is blocked, when you sit in front of the television. No more you involved. Only dumb receptivity.

But don't we need instruction? Isn't this the purpose of church meetings, that we all gain instruction about the way we should live?

Who lives the way you live? Isn't it you your self? What decides the way you live? Isn't it your own inner quality that shapes the way you live? So do not bother about the way you live but bother about the You! If you will make the right identification with the true Self instead of with the wrong one, then the way you live will be totally different. But do not fertilize the fruits, but fertilize and water the roots of your life. Be totally aware of everything that goes on inside of you with love and total acceptance, even of your baser thoughts and emotions. Just look and always be aware without judging, but without action also. Your total awareness will transform you, totally. But do not remain aloof as if it all does not concern you. Because it is all about you.

Once we realize that everything that goes on outside and inside our self is about us, then we can communicate. Then religion can become communal. Then we can read the bible or the sutra's together and we can point to the sayings of the Christ or the Buddha and say to one another: 'this is no weird, incomprehensible, old obsolete stuff. This is about you and me'. But this can only happen when we are willing to transform our self and recognize our self in these words.

But can there be no communal gatherings that can assist us in finding our true Self? For most people it is very hard to find true religion out for them selves, on their own, isn't it?

Yes, I think such gatherings are possible. But such gatherings are still very rare. You need a spiritually highly evolved spokesman to set the right tone and give the proper instructions. Or you need a group with the required openness and willingness to listen to each other. More often at therapeutical meetings than at religious meetings have I found such an atmosphere of openness and frankness . It seems that there is something in the word 'religion' that makes people feel cramped nowadays. Recently a friend told me: 'As for me, I see religion as exclusively personal. Actually, I don't even like the word religion. To me it implies external control. Nobody can or should tell anyone else what to think or believe.' This is not an isolated case, I think. This is probably the reason why people prefer the word 'spirituality', to distinguish their modern ideas about attaining happiness from the old religious prescriptions.

Yes, the word 'religion' makes a lot of people feel uneasy nowadays. Will there be another meaning of the word in the near future?

The word 'religion' isn't that favorable anymore, isn't it? For even now, in the third millennium, it is still misused as a flag of empire. Are we on the verge of another crusade? Will more and more tensions between Christians and Muslims build up? I pray it may not be the case and the crisis will die down before it is too late. I sencirely hope the word 'religion' will become obsolete in the near future. The institutionalized religions have made a bit of a mess of celebrating life. It has turned out into a power and a mind game. History gives us numerous examples of what can go wrong when people start organizing their personal religious experience. A pity though, because it is one of the more beautiful instincts in us humans, to be aware of our religious connexion with life. In integral psychology they prefer the word spirituality to the word religion. But then the question pops up whether it is possible to have a spiritual religion in the future. Will there eventually be one religion or one spirituality in the world that unites all of us? I hope so. Or will all the now known world religions evolve to a more esoteric and spiritual religion? Anyway, I hope that the end result will be a personal religion uniting us all, with no creed, with no organization, but simply with Love in a radiant heart and with consciousness rooted in Being for every human being. When every individual has realized his Self, then their will be true unity for all mankind. Then every human being will see another human being as her or his religion.

Is this your final advise to our readers?

Yes, don't worry about religion. Don't say to your self 'I'm a Christian or I'm a Buddhist'. Do not make your religion into another false identity. Just be the eternal, wise and loving You.

Thanks for this interview and for joining our discussion. 

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